Iron Horse Azure Review Pt 2: Some Saddle Time
This is part 2 of a review of the Iron Horse Azure. Part 1 can be read here . Aesthetics *Note* There is no right/wrong opinion on aestheti...
https://iskablogs.blogspot.com/2006/09/iron-horse-azure-review-pt-2-some.html
This is part 2 of a review of the Iron Horse Azure. Part 1 can be read here.
Aesthetics
*Note* There is no right/wrong opinion on aesthetics. These are just my impressions **
The 2004 Hollowpoint always looked a little kludgy to me in terms of the linkage design. I imagine the design issues are related to DW coming after the bike was originally designed and applying the DW linkage. Regardless, it just never looked right to me.
Now the Azure looks sweet. You can definitely tell that the linkage was designed along with the entire bike from the ground up. The lower linkage with the anodized red look gives it a distinct bling aspect found on more boutique frames.
The redesign of the linkage also allowed the placement of a water bottle on the down tube. On the HP the only place for the bottle was on the underside of the top tube. At first the HP's bottle placement sucked until someone recommended a side access bottle cage. This actually made the HP's water bottle really easy to access.
Ironically the placement of the bottle on the Azure is actually harder for me to access. It is placed really low on the tube and it is a long reach for my short torso. In addition, it is really really tight in that triangle. This is not a knock on IH as this is just the nature of the beast on small sized FS frames.
-There are bottle bosses on the underside of the downtube. This isn't the ideal place for a bottle because it gets really muddy, etc. But I definitely appreciate having it here. If you run bottles for energy drink during racing only having one on the bike can be a pain if you don't get handoffs.
Weight
Weight is such a touchy and well 'weighty' issue. It's hard to be an XC racer and not be somewhat influenced by weight. The HP was beefy and heavy for an XC bike but just right I imagine for a trail bike. At its best it weight 27.2 lbs with all my budget and exotic weight weenieness applied. However, the only time weight was an issue was hike-a-bike sections and racking the bike. The utter beauty of the DW-link is how it can remove weight as an issue for how the bike rides.
The Azure is about 1pound lighter than the HP.
6.3lbs for frame/shock.
The frame is definitely a beefy frame for an XC racer
With gussets, some and large tubing. The seat tube is seriously thick. I think the USA made Factory frame has a lighter seat tube. I recall on guy complaining about how the seat tube was so thick he couldn't use a weight weenie seat clamp and get the post to stay in place.
You can't really compare this frame to a Blur XC, for example, because the Blur XC has a rider weight limit. There is no weight limit on the Azure and it should be confidence inspiring for some aggro XC and endurance miles. The Blur and Titus and Specialized also cost a heck of a lot more. Only the Giant Anthem beats it on weight at a similar price point.
However, I think given some ingenuity and thought, IH could cut another pound of the Azure. They did that with the 2007 MKIII, so I bet in another design revision if they feel it is worth the investment you'll see a lighter Azure.
I also weight weenied some more parts as well, and right now it's around 25.8lbs. This is with cages and a fender,CO2, skewers, so it isn't true weight weenie. I bet with some parts changes it could easily be 24 something.
Build Spec
Stans Olympic Rims
NO-Tubes (With rim strip)
IRC Serac 2.1 front (regular tire not UST)
IRC Mythos 2.1 rear (regular tire not UST)
2003 WTB Laser Disc Lite Hubs
Salsa skewers
XT Cassette
Sram PC chain (mid level)
American Classic ISIS BB
FSA Carbon Team (24t pseudo Ti ring from Action Tec)
2004 Manitou Swinger Air shock
KCNC Seatpost (ti hardware)
WTB Rocket V (ti rails) saddle
Shimano 540 pedals (boat anchor)
Stock deore FD (boat anchor)
Ritchey Pro stem (one of the only 80mm stems around)
Answer Carbon pro taper bar
XO rear der
XO twist shifters
2004 Juicy 7s
2005 Manitou Minute 2 (fixed 100mm)
WTB grips
It's funny, one of my first rides on the Azure was when I was totally bonked from the get go. It didn't ride any better than the HP even at close to 2lbs lighter. It drove home the fact that 2 lbs on the bike can be meaningless sometimes.
Setup Issues
The stock bike came with a Manitou Radium R shock. I was actually hoping that the cheap parts spec I got would include a simple non-platform shock. I didn't know that the cheap Radium came with a built in platform that is NON-ADJUSTABLE. On a ride down the street it was TIGHT. I mean no bob when standing at all tight. I knew right away that the platform was too high for a DW link. I took my swinger air off the HP and put it on. More so that I could an apples-to-apples comparison to the HP. But also because the platform is somewhat adjustable on it. DW link bikes do not require such a high platform and it's a shame that the Radium was spec'ed on this bike to begin with.
As with any DW link bike it takes a lot of setup to find the sweet spot. Thankfully my experience with the HP let me find a good spot quickly. I am using about 10 psi less on the Azure than I did on the HP in 3.75" mode. SPV is set to the minimum of 50psi.
Here is a suspension setup guide that is a work in progress.
In addition one must also dial in the front fork as well. The HP had always been difficult to set the fork on. Because the HP had a rearward weight bias. The only time it felt really balanced (from an XC perspective) was with an 80mm Black SPV on there. The Azure is definitely more forward balanced. It feels VERY sweet from an XC perspective. At first I had my shock SPV chamber a tad too small. I opened it up a little and it felt really nice.
Protection from Chain slap.
The chain seems to ding up the frame in some places you wouldn't think to wrap. Make sure to wrap electrical tape in these areas to protect from chain slap. Otherwise you'll see these small pinhole size dings in the paint.
I still have more dialing to do but it feels really good right now.
Also make sure that when you wrap the chainstay that you wrap the angled section that connects to the BB. I stopped my wrapping right there and I've already worn down to the metal from chain slap.
The HP had a stupid slack seat tube that required me to push my saddle all the forward on the rails. I could never get rid of the creak in the saddle. The Azure has a 73.0 seat angle which makes it much easier and nicer looking to place the saddle closer to the middle of the rails
The Azure allows more choices for Front Der than the HP which is nice.
The Azure uses a more standard 27.2 seatpost, but the HP used a weird 27.0 size
Climbing
No doubt about it, the Azure is a climbing freak. It is noticeably faster than the HP. The HP is an awesome climber by the way. But the Azure is faster. The HP does get a tad better traction sometimes and in the 4.5" mode it gets insane traction on loose terrain. But 4.5" mode climbs slow. It pedals slower. The Azure is just tight. I can definitely feel more of my energy going to forward momentum. The more forward balance also lends itself to keeping the front wheel planted better. Sometimes I'd say I'm riding one gear higher than on the HP. It's that much louder.
Standing and general pedaling
I got standing pedal bob on the HP. There is still some on the Azure but noticeably less. I've found that I'm standing much more on the Azure than I did on the HP. Part of this is that I'm getting better at knowing how and when to stand. I never was able to stand right on my hardtail but I am doing it better now. The Azure feels as good as the hardtail in the right standing situation.
-In technical riding, rockgardens, etc. The Azure is better. The more centered position and balanced position on the bikes makes it easier to pop the front wheel on demand and also to coaster wheelie.
The Azure kicks total butt on any pedaling sections. Especially through the roots/small rocks that constitute trail chatter. And the buried baby head sections like this. I am talking about pedaling uphill through this stuff
The HP in 4.5" mode had this delayed feeling when the rear would suck down into the crevices. This improved in 3.75" mode and it is even better on the Azure
Descending
Ok, the Azure does not descend as well as the HP in 3.75" mode. 1/4" of travel and 2lbs makes a difference. But I also have only been on this bike for a month whereas I had moer than a year on the HP. The lighter Azure is more skittish under hard braking. Obviously the 4.5" mode HP descended the best. However, the Azure is very stable given it's longer wheelbase (for the 17" Azure compared to the 15" HP) It does take a little bit more impulse to get it to turn and requires some more body english -hip action. I'm still getting used to the subtle change in the weight balance and all too. But rest assured it does go downhill capably as an XC racer.
Of note is the headtube os 70.5 and is specced with a 100mm fork. It is NOT a twitchy bike or super fast steering. My experience in XC racing is that a super fast bike becomes a handfull when under fatigue towards the end of a race. An expert rider might be fine and welcome the quicker handling bike at all times, but for the rest of us I think the stability inherint in the slightly slacker headtube is great at all times and on these East coast aggressive xc trails
I think the Swinger shock is holding it back too. A plusher Cane Creek non platform AD-12 of Fox would probably make better use of the rear for downhilling. But I am geting full travel and am not bottoming out.
Tire Clearance
My 2.1 Mythos is slightly larger than 2.1 because it is tubeless. It is tight but is not rubbing at all. One knock the Azure gets is on tight tire clearance. But it is an XC racing frame and if it's muddy you should run mud tires. I don't think it will be a problem but I haven't really run in super muddy conditions which I hate to anyway.
It's hard to really see the true tire clearance in this picture sorry
Negatives
The only negatives so far has been the difficulty in getting to a bottle and the back of the mind feeling that it could be lighter. Other than that no issues so far.
Conclusions
Plain and simple this is a faster racing bike than the HP.
The HP is still a kick butt frame and one of the most versatile bikes made. It climbed superbly and downhilled very well. However, the Azure is faster climbing and faster in any rolling/pedaling singletrack.
I am very pleased with the Azure so far. It just feels so tight and solid under pedaling. Every pedal stroke just seems to will it forward. And I'm climbing some stuff when at redline that I'd normally be too shelled to climb on the HP. I even bumped up my gearing from a 22t on the front to a 24t and haven't had too much problem.
**EDIT**
I've been messing around with some settings. Based on some tuning tips on the iron horse forums at this link I've turned up my rebound compression. The below video shows how it rebounds now. The higher rebound (slower rebound)also makes it bob less.
**edit**
The front derailleur cage hits the lower linkage when in the granny gear. I get a knock sometimes the shock compresses a lot and it is in the small ring.
**One thing I've noticed is that on smooth climbs, the Azure doesn't do as well as the hardtail in high cadence/low torque pedaling. With the FS it seems to bog down a tiny bit under low torque. A tad lower cadence/higher gear works better. On steep hills, the terrain forces a high torque situation so the FS climbs way better than the hardtail.
** I LOVE THIS BIKE ***
**NOTE ** Water bottle clearance problem.
The lower bottle cage is on the underside of the down tube. Using a regular bottle cage places the bottle a little high. Under heavy fork compression the tire can hit the bottle.
A combination of a sidewinder cage and a bottle with that is slightly shorter can help with the clearance.
Notice the height difference between these two bottles.
Aesthetics
*Note* There is no right/wrong opinion on aesthetics. These are just my impressions **
The 2004 Hollowpoint always looked a little kludgy to me in terms of the linkage design. I imagine the design issues are related to DW coming after the bike was originally designed and applying the DW linkage. Regardless, it just never looked right to me.
Now the Azure looks sweet. You can definitely tell that the linkage was designed along with the entire bike from the ground up. The lower linkage with the anodized red look gives it a distinct bling aspect found on more boutique frames.
The redesign of the linkage also allowed the placement of a water bottle on the down tube. On the HP the only place for the bottle was on the underside of the top tube. At first the HP's bottle placement sucked until someone recommended a side access bottle cage. This actually made the HP's water bottle really easy to access.
Ironically the placement of the bottle on the Azure is actually harder for me to access. It is placed really low on the tube and it is a long reach for my short torso. In addition, it is really really tight in that triangle. This is not a knock on IH as this is just the nature of the beast on small sized FS frames.
-There are bottle bosses on the underside of the downtube. This isn't the ideal place for a bottle because it gets really muddy, etc. But I definitely appreciate having it here. If you run bottles for energy drink during racing only having one on the bike can be a pain if you don't get handoffs.
Weight
Weight is such a touchy and well 'weighty' issue. It's hard to be an XC racer and not be somewhat influenced by weight. The HP was beefy and heavy for an XC bike but just right I imagine for a trail bike. At its best it weight 27.2 lbs with all my budget and exotic weight weenieness applied. However, the only time weight was an issue was hike-a-bike sections and racking the bike. The utter beauty of the DW-link is how it can remove weight as an issue for how the bike rides.
The Azure is about 1pound lighter than the HP.
6.3lbs for frame/shock.
The frame is definitely a beefy frame for an XC racer
With gussets, some and large tubing. The seat tube is seriously thick. I think the USA made Factory frame has a lighter seat tube. I recall on guy complaining about how the seat tube was so thick he couldn't use a weight weenie seat clamp and get the post to stay in place.
You can't really compare this frame to a Blur XC, for example, because the Blur XC has a rider weight limit. There is no weight limit on the Azure and it should be confidence inspiring for some aggro XC and endurance miles. The Blur and Titus and Specialized also cost a heck of a lot more. Only the Giant Anthem beats it on weight at a similar price point.
However, I think given some ingenuity and thought, IH could cut another pound of the Azure. They did that with the 2007 MKIII, so I bet in another design revision if they feel it is worth the investment you'll see a lighter Azure.
I also weight weenied some more parts as well, and right now it's around 25.8lbs. This is with cages and a fender,CO2, skewers, so it isn't true weight weenie. I bet with some parts changes it could easily be 24 something.
Build Spec
Stans Olympic Rims
NO-Tubes (With rim strip)
IRC Serac 2.1 front (regular tire not UST)
IRC Mythos 2.1 rear (regular tire not UST)
2003 WTB Laser Disc Lite Hubs
Salsa skewers
XT Cassette
Sram PC chain (mid level)
American Classic ISIS BB
FSA Carbon Team (24t pseudo Ti ring from Action Tec)
2004 Manitou Swinger Air shock
KCNC Seatpost (ti hardware)
WTB Rocket V (ti rails) saddle
Shimano 540 pedals (boat anchor)
Stock deore FD (boat anchor)
Ritchey Pro stem (one of the only 80mm stems around)
Answer Carbon pro taper bar
XO rear der
XO twist shifters
2004 Juicy 7s
2005 Manitou Minute 2 (fixed 100mm)
WTB grips
It's funny, one of my first rides on the Azure was when I was totally bonked from the get go. It didn't ride any better than the HP even at close to 2lbs lighter. It drove home the fact that 2 lbs on the bike can be meaningless sometimes.
Setup Issues
The stock bike came with a Manitou Radium R shock. I was actually hoping that the cheap parts spec I got would include a simple non-platform shock. I didn't know that the cheap Radium came with a built in platform that is NON-ADJUSTABLE. On a ride down the street it was TIGHT. I mean no bob when standing at all tight. I knew right away that the platform was too high for a DW link. I took my swinger air off the HP and put it on. More so that I could an apples-to-apples comparison to the HP. But also because the platform is somewhat adjustable on it. DW link bikes do not require such a high platform and it's a shame that the Radium was spec'ed on this bike to begin with.
As with any DW link bike it takes a lot of setup to find the sweet spot. Thankfully my experience with the HP let me find a good spot quickly. I am using about 10 psi less on the Azure than I did on the HP in 3.75" mode. SPV is set to the minimum of 50psi.
Here is a suspension setup guide that is a work in progress.
In addition one must also dial in the front fork as well. The HP had always been difficult to set the fork on. Because the HP had a rearward weight bias. The only time it felt really balanced (from an XC perspective) was with an 80mm Black SPV on there. The Azure is definitely more forward balanced. It feels VERY sweet from an XC perspective. At first I had my shock SPV chamber a tad too small. I opened it up a little and it felt really nice.
Protection from Chain slap.
The chain seems to ding up the frame in some places you wouldn't think to wrap. Make sure to wrap electrical tape in these areas to protect from chain slap. Otherwise you'll see these small pinhole size dings in the paint.
I still have more dialing to do but it feels really good right now.
Also make sure that when you wrap the chainstay that you wrap the angled section that connects to the BB. I stopped my wrapping right there and I've already worn down to the metal from chain slap.
The HP had a stupid slack seat tube that required me to push my saddle all the forward on the rails. I could never get rid of the creak in the saddle. The Azure has a 73.0 seat angle which makes it much easier and nicer looking to place the saddle closer to the middle of the rails
The Azure allows more choices for Front Der than the HP which is nice.
The Azure uses a more standard 27.2 seatpost, but the HP used a weird 27.0 size
Climbing
No doubt about it, the Azure is a climbing freak. It is noticeably faster than the HP. The HP is an awesome climber by the way. But the Azure is faster. The HP does get a tad better traction sometimes and in the 4.5" mode it gets insane traction on loose terrain. But 4.5" mode climbs slow. It pedals slower. The Azure is just tight. I can definitely feel more of my energy going to forward momentum. The more forward balance also lends itself to keeping the front wheel planted better. Sometimes I'd say I'm riding one gear higher than on the HP. It's that much louder.
Standing and general pedaling
I got standing pedal bob on the HP. There is still some on the Azure but noticeably less. I've found that I'm standing much more on the Azure than I did on the HP. Part of this is that I'm getting better at knowing how and when to stand. I never was able to stand right on my hardtail but I am doing it better now. The Azure feels as good as the hardtail in the right standing situation.
-In technical riding, rockgardens, etc. The Azure is better. The more centered position and balanced position on the bikes makes it easier to pop the front wheel on demand and also to coaster wheelie.
The Azure kicks total butt on any pedaling sections. Especially through the roots/small rocks that constitute trail chatter. And the buried baby head sections like this. I am talking about pedaling uphill through this stuff
The HP in 4.5" mode had this delayed feeling when the rear would suck down into the crevices. This improved in 3.75" mode and it is even better on the Azure
Descending
Ok, the Azure does not descend as well as the HP in 3.75" mode. 1/4" of travel and 2lbs makes a difference. But I also have only been on this bike for a month whereas I had moer than a year on the HP. The lighter Azure is more skittish under hard braking. Obviously the 4.5" mode HP descended the best. However, the Azure is very stable given it's longer wheelbase (for the 17" Azure compared to the 15" HP) It does take a little bit more impulse to get it to turn and requires some more body english -hip action. I'm still getting used to the subtle change in the weight balance and all too. But rest assured it does go downhill capably as an XC racer.
Of note is the headtube os 70.5 and is specced with a 100mm fork. It is NOT a twitchy bike or super fast steering. My experience in XC racing is that a super fast bike becomes a handfull when under fatigue towards the end of a race. An expert rider might be fine and welcome the quicker handling bike at all times, but for the rest of us I think the stability inherint in the slightly slacker headtube is great at all times and on these East coast aggressive xc trails
I think the Swinger shock is holding it back too. A plusher Cane Creek non platform AD-12 of Fox would probably make better use of the rear for downhilling. But I am geting full travel and am not bottoming out.
Tire Clearance
My 2.1 Mythos is slightly larger than 2.1 because it is tubeless. It is tight but is not rubbing at all. One knock the Azure gets is on tight tire clearance. But it is an XC racing frame and if it's muddy you should run mud tires. I don't think it will be a problem but I haven't really run in super muddy conditions which I hate to anyway.
It's hard to really see the true tire clearance in this picture sorry
Negatives
The only negatives so far has been the difficulty in getting to a bottle and the back of the mind feeling that it could be lighter. Other than that no issues so far.
Conclusions
Plain and simple this is a faster racing bike than the HP.
The HP is still a kick butt frame and one of the most versatile bikes made. It climbed superbly and downhilled very well. However, the Azure is faster climbing and faster in any rolling/pedaling singletrack.
I am very pleased with the Azure so far. It just feels so tight and solid under pedaling. Every pedal stroke just seems to will it forward. And I'm climbing some stuff when at redline that I'd normally be too shelled to climb on the HP. I even bumped up my gearing from a 22t on the front to a 24t and haven't had too much problem.
**EDIT**
I've been messing around with some settings. Based on some tuning tips on the iron horse forums at this link I've turned up my rebound compression. The below video shows how it rebounds now. The higher rebound (slower rebound)also makes it bob less.
**edit**
The front derailleur cage hits the lower linkage when in the granny gear. I get a knock sometimes the shock compresses a lot and it is in the small ring.
**One thing I've noticed is that on smooth climbs, the Azure doesn't do as well as the hardtail in high cadence/low torque pedaling. With the FS it seems to bog down a tiny bit under low torque. A tad lower cadence/higher gear works better. On steep hills, the terrain forces a high torque situation so the FS climbs way better than the hardtail.
** I LOVE THIS BIKE ***
**NOTE ** Water bottle clearance problem.
The lower bottle cage is on the underside of the down tube. Using a regular bottle cage places the bottle a little high. Under heavy fork compression the tire can hit the bottle.
A combination of a sidewinder cage and a bottle with that is slightly shorter can help with the clearance.
Notice the height difference between these two bottles.
